Talk:Pierogi

Varenyky in lead

I tried adding this after discussion above, but was reverted. I propose varenyky be mentioned explicitly in the lead. This isn't just local name, but is also used in English to refer to the same dish when served in a Ukrainian or Russian setting (restaurant, home, or ready made). Unlike naming variants such as "pirohy", varenyky has different etymology. It is also a major national dish in Ukraine.Nyx86 (talk) 14:41, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

If it's the same dish, then it's a translation of pierogi into Ukrainian, and it isn't used anywhere near as often as "pierogi" in the English-speaking world. If it's a different dish, then it should have its own article. JimKaatFan (talk) 04:29, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

The word "varenyky" is part of Canadian English language. It is specified as such in Canadian Oxford dictionary. Therefore it is mentioned in the lede. --Off-shell (talk) 07:53, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

It is very similar, but with different traditions and associations. It used to be a separate article.Nyx86 (talk) 17:04, 6 August 2020 (UTC) sock

Of course varenyky should be in the lead. It is an English word, by the way, as it is in English dictionaries. If pierogi and varenyky are considered exactly the same dish, the name is different enough to be in the lead (especially as it is present in English dictionaries such as the Canadian Oxford dictionary). If it is not the same dish, the independent article Varenyky should be restored, since it was merged with pierogi without a consensus. Dan Palraz (talk) 08:11, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

Calling pierogi "varenyky"

@Off-shell: You recently reverted an edit with "Restored, as the word is used in Canadian English. This is a long-standing consensus". There's absolutely nothing on the talk page that says the word "varenyky" is used in Canadian English. In fact, the one person that mentions what the dish is called in Canada is @Kevlar67:, who states, "as a native Canadian English speaker (and perogy fan and maker) I can attest that this dish is almost always called perogies in Canada (or rarely pyrohy), home to both large UKR and PL diasporas, and we do not make any distinction with varenyky (because this word is not used in the variety of Ukrainian that made it here!)" In other words, the exact opposite of what you claim. Please revert back to including "varenyky" as a translation. That's what it is - the Ukrainian word for pierogi. JimKaatFan (talk) 22:17, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

@JimKaatFan: There should be none of that in the lead because then we will be translating from all Central and Eastern European languages. This is English wikipedia and the two sole names for those are Pierogi (the most widespread and accepted) and in some parts of Canada Varenyky (which in my opinion should have their own separate page) as the number of ethnic Ukrainians in Canada is greater. Adding "Ukrainian" to the lead will just direct the audience towards thinking that they are of solely Ukrainian origin, which they are not. Oliszydlowski (talk) 01:37, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm not following the logic here. It's common to include a translation (and often, for multiple languages) right after the name of the subject of the article in the first sentence. Nothing about including those implies that the subject originated in the place the translated word is from.

As for Varenyky having its own article, I'm inclined to agree with you, but I would have to research it more. Regardless, one of two things is true - either they're not the same thing, which means Varenyky should have its own article, or they are the same thing, which means "varenyky" is just the Ukrainian word for pierogi. As pierogi is a Polish loan-word in English, and by far the more commonly used word for these dumplings in the English-speaking world, it's not accurate to say they're "also known as varenyky". They're rarely called that, and only in small pockets of the English-speaking world. If that's the direction you want to go, there's better ways to phrase it in the lead. JimKaatFan (talk) 02:19, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

@JimKaatFan: As already mentioned, "varenyky" is mentioned as a Canadian English word in the Canadian Oxford Dictionary. This is a reliable source. It is put in the very first statement, thus as an English word, not as a Ukrainian one (from which it was adopted into Canadian English). It can be that it became outdated in Canada, but statements like "I can attest that..." is an opinion of the editor / original research. It is also unclear how the Canadian Oxford Dictionary reference supports the sentence "among the Ukranians they are known as varenyky". If you mean Ukrainians living in Canada and speaking English, it's OK. But this has to be speicified. If you mean Ukrainian language, this would need a source for Ukrainian. But it would then also be incorrect to mention only Ukrainian name in bold without mentioning Slovak pirohy, Russian vareniki, Romanian coltunaci etc.

As for the question of having a separate article: there was a separate article, but there was a discussion here on this page, which resulted into a merger. There are source like this one supporting this. --Off-shell (talk) 07:26, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Well, are you saying that varenyky and pierogi are the same thing? Or are you saying that they're different? If you are, it's probably time to revisit the merge. There was some strong opposition to the merger and I'm not sure the "support" votes presented any solid reasoning; it looks like it was mostly a case of "bah, I think they're the same, so I vote merge." JimKaatFan (talk) 17:13, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

The majority vote was in favour of merging them. As I said, there are several sources like this one saying they are the same thing. Did you look at it? --Off-shell (talk) 20:06, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Slow your roll. We all know there are sources that say they're the same thing. And I'm pretty sure we all know that there's sources that claim subtle differences. And this one even says that "Vareniki" is the more commonly used term in Russia, while "Pierogi" is used in Poland, Ukraine and Slovakia. This one says they're prepared differently. This one, written by Russians, says Russians and Ukrainians say "varenyky" and Canadian Ukrainians say "pierogi". The point, there are different sources out there that say different things. JimKaatFan (talk) 12:37, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

So all sources which you found say basically the same well-known things: The word varenyky is used in most of Ukraine, vareniki in Russia, pyrohy in Western Ukraine, pierogi in Poland, pirohy in Slovakia. You say: "This one says they're prepared differently." Let me quote this source: "Next, is it varenyky or pierogi? (I’m not even going to talk about the different spellings of pierogi!) Pierogi is a Polish word, but other than that, the difference is tenuous. A dumpling is a dumpling. Varenyky are typically boiled, and pierogi tend to be boiled, and then baked or fried. But I’ve eaten both fried varenyky and simply boiled pierogi." So you interpret this paragraph as "they're prepared differently"? --Off-shell (talk) 21:26, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Look, I haven't made up my mind as to whether these should be separate articles or not. And I'm sure you know that's not the only source that draws a distinction. Everything I wrote was after 5 minutes of Google. I'm sure if I dedicated a few hours to it, I'd find a boatload of sources that would help me make up my mind. JimKaatFan (talk) 22:06, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

At the time when the merger discussion started I was skeptical about merging pierogi and varenyky articles. But looking into the sources I became more and more convinced that they are the same thing. They seem to have the same origin in Kievan Rus' and basically the same recipes. There are slight local differences, but I didn't find sources which would draw a significant distinction between them. So I voted for the merger at the end. The common tradition developed probably at the times when Ukraine was part of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania which in turn became part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. It remains puzzling why the two different words were used in Eastern and Western Ukraine. It is also worth noting that although these dumplings are different from baked pirogs or pirozhki (cognate words for pierogi), they often use similar fillings, e.g. pre-cooked meat, quark (curd cheese), or berries, which are rather uncommon for other dumplings. So they come from the same local culinary tradition. So either you find good sources supporting the splitting or we stay with the merged article. In the latter case, the current sentence in the lede concerning varenyky needs to be adjusted, because it is inconsistent, as I wrote above. --Off-shell (talk) 23:08, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

There's a lot to unwrap here. First, I would appreciate if you would back off with the aggressive tone. I think we both want to make this article accurate and improve it, but you're treating me as an adversary, and I don't appreciate that. JimKaatFan (talk) 00:45, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, if it sounded aggresive. It would be great if you take time to dig into it. But please, do not simply delete the content without studying the subject before. This caused my initial reaction. In fact, the article is still in a quite bad shape. In particular, there is only little information about the history. There are already many links to Russian, Ukrainian and Polish sources collected on this talk page about the first usage of the terms pierogi and varenyky. There is quite much to improve here but it also needs a deep dive. --Off-shell (talk) 17:16, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree we should mention varenyky in the lead. It is also used in English, usage depends on whether it is Polish or Ukrainian themed setting.Nyx86 (talk) 17:08, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

@JimKaatFan: Pierogi in Polish language means not only boiled dumplings, but all types of flour products. This is the same, that slavic pirog, but this article about popular dumplings. And word pyrohy or pierogi is Ukrainian too, because all Ukrainians call flour products "pyrohy" and we use this term for the dumplings on the West Ukraine too. I tried add information about use word pyrohy on the West Ukraine (composition of Ukrainian writer Ivan Franko "Pyrohy with blueberries"), but my adding was canceled. I think would be not bad to add information about kasha varnishkes(varenyk with porridge), which was borrowed by Ashkenazi (whose cuisine you deleted from this article). Even the name comes from the varenyky (varenychky)[1]. By the way borshch in English is BorschT because of Ashkenazi too, who showed this dish to America [2]. So Ukrainian pronounce of this dish is "just the Ukrainian word for (jewish) borschT" too? And maybe you'll open your eyes and see "wareneki" here [3] (sorry, but your deletions is so aggressive too)?VladOz (talk) 13:26, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

@VladOz: It's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. JimKaatFan (talk) 16:30, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

@JimKaatFan: Return the Ashkenazi and Ukrainian Mennonites, who borrowed varenyky/pierogi into their cuisines, when they lived in this area [4]. Kasha varnishkes should be added, like confirmation of the long existence of varenyky in the cuisine of Ashkenazi, that even a new dish was created on this basis. The etymology of "varnishkes" is interesting. It comes from varenyky or varenychky (diminutive form)[5]. Unfortunately, there are few links to Mennonites cuisine, such as the link you deleted due to the "lack of mention of pierogi" (there is mention "wareneki").[6] And leave varenyky on the top, because there was varenyky article and I also don't see any mention of koltunas in the Canadian dictionary (because varenyky is very related to Ruthenian migration to the United States and Canada, not Romanian or only Polish).VladOz (talk) 18:40, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Your first link doesn't mention Mennonites at all. Also, mennoneechiekitchen.com is not what I'd call a WP:RS, not even close. Also, you still have not been specific, but perhaps there's a language barrier here that I am willing to try to work through. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. JimKaatFan (talk) 17:23, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

@JimKaatFan: Change to "as well as in modern-day American and Ashhkenazi cuisines". And add information about kasha varnishkes to body of article. I provided source to Ashkenazi cuisine. Your delete had "reference does not mention pierogi" comment. I know, that it isn't good source, but there is small amount of sources about Minnonites and their cuisine. This one not so reliable too, but there is information about kasha varnishkes too [7].

I searched, and I did not find any reliable sources supporting that addition. The fact that "there is small amount of sources about Minnonites and their cuisine" does not mean that we should therefore use a personal blog as a source. JimKaatFan (talk) 01:40, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

@JimKaatFan:, @VladOz: Here are several book sources for Mennonite vareniki:

• Mennonite Foods & Folkways from South Russia, page 215
• Treasured Mennonite recipes, page 169: Glooms Vareneki (here, an account is needed, but one create it and borrow the book for one hour free of charge).
• Mennonite Folklife and Folklore, page 56.

Several cookbooks are also mentioned in Mennonite cuisine. --Off-shell (talk) 12:31, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

I added a sentence about Mennonites using the term, and the two alternate spellings. I'd like to point out that once we're reaching for sources this hard, that are of mediocre quality and barely mention the term in question, we should really look at what we're trying to accomplish here. This is an encyclopedia, after all, not a place for ultra-nationalist promotion of one's ethnic background. As I am neither Polish nor Ukrainian, I can assure you I have no dog in that fight, and my interest is in making sure this article stays encyclopedic. JimKaatFan (talk) 15:12, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

What about Ashkenazi?VladOz (talk) 20:12, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

A good reference for pierogi/varenyky in Jewish cuisine is this one:

• Gil Marks, Encyclopedia of Jewish Food, sections Varenik/Varenikes and Pirog and Kasha Varnishkes. --Off-shell (talk) 21:54, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

Kasha varnishkes has its own article. I don't know what we could possibly add from the other two sources, as there's no content that mentions "Ashkenazi". JimKaatFan (talk) 15:17, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

"Ashkenazi Jews are basically the Jews who lived or are still living in Central and Eastern Europe, from Germany via Poland to Ukraine, Belarus and Russia, as well as their descendants living in the US, Canada, Australia etc. It is the largest group of Jews today (60-70% of Jews worldwide). Everything written about Varenikes, Pirog etc. in the Encyclopedia of Jewish Food is about the cuisine of Ashkenazi Jews. Other prominent groups are Sephardic Jews (those who lived in Spain, France, Italy,...) and Mizrahi Jews who live(d) in the Middle East. These groups have no historical connection to Eastern Europe. --Off-shell (talk) 16:37, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

I know what Ashkenazi Jews are, thanks. If you knew me personally you would be embarrassed that you felt you had to explain all of that.. JimKaatFan (talk) 23:17, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

Schlutzkrapfen has its own article too, but it is in this article. And this dish hasn't any common with pierogi (but kasha varnishkes originates from varenyky). Its like ravioli.VladOz (talk) 16:48, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

@JimKaatFan: Oy vey :), then one could just add that pierogi / varenyky have also been cooked by Ashkenazy Jews. This is basically what these sections of the Encyclopedia tell us. The Polish Jews called it pirogen, while the Ukrainian Jews called it varenikes or varnishkes. So they adopted the names from their respective neighbours. --Off-shell (talk) 19:35, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

You'd need an explicit statement to that effect from a reliable source. I'm not saying it isn't true; of course Ashkenazi Jews probably cooked pierogi, but part of what determines what makes the cut is, is it mentioned in a reliable source? Deducing it from the presence of a word in one book amounts to WP:SYNTHESIS. Anyway, there's got to be a better source than that, somewhere. JimKaatFan (talk) 19:58, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

Gil Marks is a well-known writer, and this encyclopedia is surely a reliable source! It is cited in many articles on Jewish cuisine. --Off-shell (talk) 20:29, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

I don't know what you're replying to here. I said we don't create entire statements of fact that are deduced from the presence of a word in one book, because that's WP:SYNTHESIS. JimKaatFan (talk) 20:35, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

There must be some misunderstanding here. This encyclopedia has entire chapters called Varenik/Varenikes and Pirog. Here is an excerpt from Varenik/Varenikes: "Varenikes are quintessential Ukrainian comfort food, inspiring songs and memories. In 1954, Mark Olf, one of America's most prominent Yiddish singers and composers, recorded the song, "Die Mame kacht Varenikes" (The Mama Cooks the Varenikes). The contemporary Israel-based singer and musician Samson Kemelmakher, who was born in Moldova in the former Soviet Union in 1953, began his Yiddish song, "Yidishe Maykholim" (Jewish Foods) with the line "Varnishkes mit kaese un mit puter [noodles with cheese and with butter], on Shavuot, my mother gave me..." And here is an excerpt from Pirog: "Pirog (pirogen/pirogn plural) is the Yiddish variation of the filled half-moon-shaped boiled pasta. Jewish fruit-filled versions are sometimes called varenikes." And one more paragraph from the same chapter: "In the early twentieth century, pirogen became a favorite dish at Catskills resorts and various Jewish cafeterias and luncheonettes in New York City, from Ratner's on the Lower East Side to Famous Dairy Restaurant on the Upper West Side and, in between in the garment district, Dubrow's Cafeteria, all of which closed towards the end of the twentieth century in the face of rising real estate prices and changing tastes in food." --Off-shell (talk) 21:02, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

It is obvious that "varenyky" should be in the lead as well, for the reasons so many users have already pointed out. It is an English word like pierogi, with both being found in English dictionaries. For now, I am putting a mention to "varenyky" only in the second paragraph of the article, but if that gets reverted too, I will ask for third-opinions that I am sure will agree that varenyky should be in the first sentence of the article, as alternative names always do. Unless we agree that it is not exactly the same dish, in which case the independent article Varenyky should be restored, since it was merged with pierogi without a consensus. Dan Palraz (talk) 08:21, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

China

@Merangs: I don't think, that statement about origin of all dumplings must be in the lead (in Origins it's ok) of the article about pierogi. Article about Italian ravioli even don't have any information of Chinese origin, only about Italian.

I see your point, but are ravioli of Chinese/Asian origin? Merangs (talk)

@Merangs:Read source: "Ojczyzną pierogów są bowiem Chiny. Do Europy, konkretnie do Włoch, zostały przywiezione przez Marco Polo".VladOz (talk) 20:35, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Agreed, of course pierogi aren't originally from China; dumplings are. Dan Palraz (talk) 08:14, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

Pierogi is Polish

That's all. "Pierogi ruskie" derives from the Ruskie Voivodeship/Ruthenian Voivodeship which then (from the 14th to the 18th century and from 1918 to 1939) denoted Red Ruthenia, which was the triangle between the Polish cities of Lwów-Przemyśl-Lublin. Varenyky do not come in this variety, they are only filled with either potato or cheese, not both. Pierogi as we know them are a Polish dish and a wiki page dedicated to pierogi should be dedicated to pierogi and nothing else. Make a page about varenyky etc. all you want but pierogi is pierogi: a Polish staple. Furthermore, Ukraine wasn't a state of its own until a short stint between 1919 and 1920 and since 1991 (unless you count the Ukrainian SSR as a Ukrainian state). This land was Poland and Polish was the prestigious culture, Poles were also richer. The culture trickled down from Poles to Ukrainians and not the other way round. It also helps explain why Ukrainians know potato-only "varenyky" and Poles don't—Ukrainians were and are more impoverished. 79.191.153.71 (talk) 08:35, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

You ought to read back through this talk page to see how consensus was gained, and provide sources if you want to re-examine the consensus. Responding to your edit here,[8] the articles were merged following consensus to do so. Responding to this edit,[9] I'm not sure why the article on Ravioli is a "standard" that this article has to follow, don't see any such consensus. FutureFlowsLoveYou (talk) 11:18, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

Because ravioli is as Asian as pierogi is. So... 79.191.153.71 (talk) 15:40, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

Ravioli also has Asian origins. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:48, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

That's exactly my point. And since its origin is listed as Italy in its infobox, there is a lack of consequence here 79.191.153.71 (talk) 06:46, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

You are more than welcome to amend the inbox over there if you have an appropriate source. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:09, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Again, check out the ravioli page. I don't have to provide a source for something that will simply disappear. Got it? 79.191.153.71 (talk) 10:07, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Ravioli page isn't the supreme court of dumpling related pages. Don't understand the second part of your comment. FutureFlowsLoveYou (talk) 11:07, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

The WP has to be consistent. I know arguments can be made that it cannot be 100% consistent. But we should strive to keep the minimal standards otherwise it just looks weird, like there's an anti-Eastern Europe or anti-Polish specifically bias. Let's not be like that and keep everything equal and just. 79.191.153.71 (talk) 13:54, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Please change your reference removing edit[10] back to the WP:STATUSQUO, as the discussion hasn't concluded yet.

You've yet to provide any sources or substantive reasons for your edits, and the anti-nationality/region bias is not apparent. No guideline forces Pierogi's infobox to be copied after Ravioli, regardless of how Ravioli does things. Contents of the Infobox are determined through its article talk page, as seen at Help:Infobox. Infoboxes reflect their articles, including Pierogi. For example, Pierogi#Origins mentions Asia and China quite a fair bit when covering its origins. FutureFlowsLoveYou (talk) 16:01, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Does Ravioli mention Marco Polo and Asia? There are no dumplings like pierogi precisely, in Asia. And we're on the talk page right here. And you're yet to make an argument, while I already have. 79.191.153.71 (talk) 03:17, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Please stop ignoring my replies. There is no rule that says Pierogi needs to remove content because Ravioli doesn't say the same thing.. It's not a rule just because you say it is.. FutureFlowsLoveYou (talk) 12:28, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Saying it comes from China is incredibly poor form

The source is a foodie article which has brought many issues in the past for Wikipedia (foodie articles that is) and it would be better to put no story of its origins if it can't be linked to good historiographical research 2.34.83.7 (talk) 21:59, 13 January 2025 (UTC)